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Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:44 pm
by Xanth
Ok, so I'd like to open up this subject for discussion. :)

There's one discussion of this nature going on in a facebook group I'm a part of and it's gone astray, but I think we can probably keep this civil here.

Everyone always says, and I've read, that there are distinct differences between lucid dreams and astral projections...

I'd like to ask what everything thinks these distinctions are (if you think there are distinctions at all)?

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:22 pm
by Sinera
I cannot tell any difference. For me lucid dreaming does not exist. It is a contradiction in itself because dreaming is just describing my state of consciousness of being NOT lucid (my subbie is boss, so to speak).

When "projecting" I project my "conscious" (and NOT subconscious) mind into the experience. Wait a minute, hm ... this would make the physical a projection too when I think about it ... Image hmm... it's rather complex ... :?

(I can well tell a difference between ETHERIC projection and ASTRAL projection though. But that would be off-topic now. ;) )

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:48 pm
by Szaxx
Astral side you are the you in the physical. You retain memories for the purpose of the experience and generally it seems as the physical with extra senses and all associated with where you are.
A lucid dream has its own memories. These are non physical and match the environment. You become lucid and find the setting where you've been married for 5 years....
All this is accepted as correct. You have some physical memories but these can be very limited. They don't change either. You are in control and can do things as wanted but these things seem to fit the dream.
Travelling in an LD you'd walk or run, perhaps get some form of transport.
Astrally you'd think and be there. Unless you were investigating.
LDing is one where things like walking through walls or floating upwards are not something that appear normal to do.
Astral, hey you could zoom a thousand feet and think nothing of it. Also anything that doesn't appear in the environment, you'd automatically know you can do it, but don't, it may upset the locals. Flying up the stairs is a perfect example. You wouldn't, would you?

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:07 pm
by Justin
So far, I have found absolutely no differences - none (aside from the process in getting "there"). Anytime that I am aware and functioning without my physical body, I consider myself to be in the non-physical, astral, larger reality, et all. It seems to me that, in the larger reality, it isn't so much about the "place" or the reality as much as it is about our intent and expectations (and beliefs).

The only time that I might tend to use the term "lucid dreaming" is when I become aware in a dream and choose to stay in that particular story or setting. However, even then, I still consider it to be no different than an OBE. I do not think that lucid dreaming is one reality while OBE is another. It seems to be that it all blends together, overlaps, and flows based on our intent.

For me, the experiences are so vast and varying that I hesitate to label them as anything other than experiences in the larger reality. I have never noticed that some things or situations only happen in lucid dreams while others only occur in OBE. Again, it all seems to blend and flow together. I tend to distinguish the experiences in terms of how focused and clear my mind was. A clear and focused mind - free of fear, beliefs, and expectations is everything - our thoughts (both surface and buried) are the propulsion system that drives the experiences.

Another thing that is interesting to consider is that the OBE and lucid dreaming literature support this idea. Robert Waggoner in Lucid Dreaming describes experiences that could have easily come out of any OBE book or blog. Stephen LaBerge in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming utilizes techniques that are not different than conscious projections via sleep paralysis or the vibrational state. If we could throw all of the various journal stories in to a big pile and erase the information of how each experience began (via a dream or OBE), it woud likely be impossible to tell which ones were lucid dreams and which ones were OBEs.

Now, there are people that might say, "yes, but when I am in a lucid dream, XYZ always happens; yet, while out-of-body, QRS tends to happen." I might argue that such is the result of expectations and beliefs about the experiences. I began having lucid dreams and OBEs spontaneously - long before I had even heard the terms "lucid dreaming" or "OBE." The point being that I never knew that there was supposed to be differences, and therefor never experienced any.

anyway, that is my take from where I am at now. It will no doubt evolve and change.

Good topic.

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:35 am
by Methiculous
Xanth wrote:I'd like to ask what everything thinks

First of all, I am not a thing. Bah! How can I argue with a kitten wearing an angry frog helmet?

I've lucid dreamed a lot, (full gamut from semi-lucid to feeling like I have a body in an alternate dimension), but never felt like I ever astral projected.
Why? I don't even know what an astral projection is suppose to be like. Maybe I already did. I wouldn't know.
(Therefore I think it is a label just like in some parts of the world a cyclone is called a typhoon and in other parts it is known as a hurricane. It's all just a big hot wind to me!)

But those really good, vivid lucid dreams where you feel like you have a body and walk around and pick up things and examine them.... those are amazing, I don't care what they are called.

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:38 am
by Majic
I will answer with a question,

Could an astral projector and a lucid dreamer meet in their adventures and if so imagine the debate :D

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:47 pm
by Methiculous
Majic wrote:Could an astral projector and a lucid dreamer meet in their adventures and if so imagine the debate :D


And if a non-lucid dreamer happens to wander in, they will have the wisest words: "Shut up you two! I'm trying to sleep!" ;)

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:50 pm
by ChopstickFox
Lucid dreaming just means that you are aware that your physical body is chilling out asleep on a bed. It implies you have control of your surroundings. Astral Projection implies you're... well... I think as a general look, intentionally exploring the non physical, but to me it's not exactly limited to that. So to me, I guess there's not really a difference besides how technically specific you want to get with the specific words. All part of the great big non physical experiences pot to me! :D

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:14 pm
by Xanth
The general consensus of what "lucid dreaming" means is simply the "how" you get to experience the non-physical... although some people tend to hold way to strongly onto one conviction over another. Like it's life or death or something. LoL

Basically, when someone says they had a lucid dream, what they *tend to mean* is that they fell asleep normally and became consciously aware at some point during the dream they were having.
And when they say they had an Astral Projection, what they *tend to mean* is that they induced that same "lucid dream" experience from a fully conscious state.

The difference between the terms comes directly down to whether you had awareness BEFORE or AFTER you fell asleep. Nobody ever talks about conscious awareness... this was my breakthrough, for myself at least. I tried looking at the experience from a completely different perspective. Not from you having an experience... but you BEING the experience. It changed everything for me. It was the starting point for my "conscious awareness designation system" which I use today. It lead to me discovering that you don't have a lucid dream or an astral projection... instead, you're lucidly aware and astrally aware while experiencing the non-physical.

To me it's so blatantly obvious that I really wonder why so few people have stumbled upon this line of thinking. I think it stems from a fear that people want dreams to be so separate from their waking life that they're willing to hold on so strongly to a lie in order to retain that safety net. I dunno really... but it really does boggle my mind that people still believe these are all COMPLETELY separate experiences.

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:52 pm
by Jettins
Xanth wrote:It lead to me discovering that you don't have a lucid dream or an astral projection... instead, you're lucidly aware and astrally aware while experiencing the non-physical.

Yeah, when I am not being critical about why I am calling an experience a lucid dream or an astral projection experience I like to refer to it as: becoming objectively aware, objectively conscious, or consciously aware in the non-physical.

First of all one would have to establish what Astral projection and lucid dream experiences actually are to even begin trying to distinguish the difference. So I’ll just define it as such:

Lucid dream – perceptual (or based on) thought energy predominantly of the psyche (constricted)

Astral Projection – perceptual thought energy predominantly outside the psyche (expanded)

There are many things to consider that happen during non-physical experiences, such as the changes in psychological states that trigger shifting perceptions. These differences can only be properly made by each individual as no two minds are operating exactly alike (but can be understood with a high degree of personal experience). There are different ways how the shifts in perceptions can occur since not everyone will be living the same inner and out realities. This means that *what reads like a lucid dream can in fact be an astral projection experience and vice versa. We have to look at it from a different angle to know what is happening, an angle that understands and considers what generates the shifts in perception from a constricted into an expanded state.

To me the lucid dream and the astral projection experience have many similarities because the states blend together. However, there are constricted psychological states in which everything around you is predominately originating from our own psyche, and there are expanded psychological states in which what is around you is being predominately sensed and recreated by your inner senses, therefore sustained collectively. Some argue that when objective consciousness is increased, one is in the Astral projection state. But this cannot be completely correct or is incomplete because a lucid dreamer can have a high objective consciousness to not sense and become aware of outer realities, therefore stay involved within the designated parameters of his or her experience (psyche). Or in other words to become objective with the therapeutic "thought forms". So if these two states can blend together, the confusion is the lack of understanding of what is being sensed. When you find the "exit point to the lucid dream" think about what is happening psychologically, this is how you can notice the perceptions expanding into the "astral projection" state in the same way as when you “feel the exit sensations” during the onset of an out-of-body experience.

Xanth mentions about clearing the mind as a requirement for a conscious astral projection, this is great, but have many other people done this within the lucid dream state, was an expanded perception a result? (an increase in perceptional awareness will separate the different states, ex. constricted to expanded). If the person thinks of the lucid dream state as not really existing as something separate, I think this will work well. If the person thinks of the lucid dream and the astral experience as being the same (with the consensus definition), the person might not experience these shifts in perception because the "separation" process wasn't objectively realized. If the person is not thinking of it as constricted or expanded (inner vs. outer) the perceptions just won’t present themselves to be realize. If this is the case, the experiences will have an imperceptible change in flow if static or a similar story-line if active. I am not saying that a changing story-line is universally an AP experience, what this means is that the person runs a greater risk of not knowing what is what and therefore incorrectly concluded the psyche (the person) is not sensing anything different in origin. The realization of their condition in the form of intuition during non-physical experiences just won't come up. Examples of how deceased entities are living "lucid dream" like constricted realities would explain things further. If this is not fully realized experiences become colored by our inner prejudices that come standard with every subtle existence which include our expectations, non-expectations, beliefs, disbeliefs known and unknown. When this is happening becoming unstuck form undesired non-physical story-lines is more difficult for sure. The subconscious or memory gets projected everywhere, it is the perceptional points (or based on points) being referred that may change.

How to avoid this problem of becoming unknowingly stuck?

Ultimately you clean the perceptions, which means you will do so by figuring yourself out in the process.

I don't think anyone in this forum will have a problem with this. I remind the readers that my views aren't meant to be universal.

Xanth wrote:The general consensus of what "lucid dreaming" means is simply the "how" you get to experience the non-physical.

I think the general consensus on what "lucid dreaming" means should be "why" you experienced the non-physical, instead of "how". With this thinking it will sort itself out for sure.

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:18 am
by Xanth
That would seem to be the other perceptual thought on the subject. Lol

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:31 pm
by Methiculous
Xanth wrote:Basically, when someone says they had a lucid dream, what they *tend to mean* is that they fell asleep normally and became consciously aware at some point during the dream they were having.
And when they say they had an Astral Projection, what they *tend to mean* is that they induced that same "lucid dream" experience from a fully conscious state.


I agree. I lucid dreamed quite a bit for a while, a few years ago before I ever went online about it. And sometimes I had strange sensations... (We all know what those are like, but at the time I never read a book about it or talked to anybody so it was amazing to me and I thought I was breaking new ground.) I just knew that if I was able to relax during the vibrations, sinking, and overcome sleep paralysis it would lead to more lucid dream control. I just knew it instinctively and I was right. The first time I successfully accomplished my goal, 'riding the wave into a dream', was Christmas day 2011 to be exact. But I felt for some reason that I experienced something different than a lucid dream. I never knew a dream could be so vivid. I went online and learned the word: Astral Projection. I was still skeptical about it and later learned about the W.I.L.D. method and I just chalked it up to that. It was basically the same as a WILD, but it happened by accident in the middle of my sleep when I ALMOST wake up, but don't quite and then relax and I am already in the zone, or the phase state or whatever you call it. Not quite asleep, not quite awake. That's how it still happens for me to this day.... BY ACCIDENT!

I am a layman and I like it. It doesn't mean I am stupid nor naive, but it means I don't know the correct words or jargon that has been popularized. It many ways that sets me free.
Why do people care so much? It's because they want to believe in something bigger than themselves. It becomes as heated a debate as discussing religion!

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:29 pm
by Xanth
Michael Scannell wrote:I am a layman and I like it. It doesn't mean I am stupid nor naive, but it means I don't know the correct words or jargon that has been popularized. It many ways that sets me free.
Why do people care so much? It's because they want to believe in something bigger than themselves. It becomes as heated a debate as discussing religion!

Well that's kind of the point, there are no "correct words" for any of this... everyone seems to either have their own words or use words which they feel most closely matches their experiences per their interpretations.

The descriptions I provided above are those I've found that most people I've discussed these subjects with use. Hell, even I used them myself for quite a while before I had gathered enough personal experience to start using my own descriptors.

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:18 am
by Majic
I have the same opinions on a lot of words and try not to use then if they carry meanings beyond what I choose to think. It almost appears that to lucid dream is for beginners or the masses and to astral travel is for experienced whatevers and carries more weight and has deeper meaning. I like to talk about the experiences and to be led to deeper levels of awareness as I like to say. It is a lot like the debates on religion and I stay away from them as much as possible

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:21 pm
by Methiculous
Majic wrote: It is a lot like the debates on religion and I stay away from them as much as possible


Hallejuha! (I don't know if I spelled it right.) But religion is nonsense when you think about it and even the counter-point of it, PHYSICS, is also nonsense when you think about it. People will debate about the two at length until their lungs get tired, but neither realize that they are perceptual beings with the capability of asking that age old question: Who am I?

I'll give a hint: THERE IS NO ANSWER.

But it's a fun ride.

(all debates end with the same question: "Who am I and why do I matter? And what is matter?!?" Who cares about anything else? (When it comes to the big debatable questions...)

The smart ones don't care and are having fun with or without us !

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:30 pm
by Majic
I'll give a hint: THERE IS NO ANSWER.

But it's a fun ride.


And this brings us or me back to the beginning,

The question "what is the meaning of life"
The answer " fool - its a gift, just enjoy"

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:39 pm
by Methiculous
I feel like I went off on a tangent and started to discuss bigger issues of existence and why is there anything at all, which is basically what religion is for.
But I will bring it back home again and say that the reason why this can be a hot topic for some is because it can't be answered unless you have a strong belief in something.
To an atheist they are just dreams, but to others, there is a higher plane of existence beyond our physical bodies and it is called the astral plane.

I actually don't know one way or the other and try to remain as agnostic as possible.

I just wanted to clarify that, and we have kept it civil unlike Ryan's (I mean Xanth's) past experience on Facebook.
Good Talk!

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:43 am
by Methiculous
Lionheart wrote:I don't know of Ryan's past experience on Facebook,


It was mentioned in his first post that got this ball rolling. I wasn't there either and I only know about it from what he said in the first message.

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:32 pm
by Xanth
LoL

Oh I've all but given up trying to help her. I don't dislike her... I think she's just one person who hasn't found a path of Love yet.
I continue to post on her questions with whatever knowledge I have to share... I view it as helping others by proxy. hehe

But as for what Michael is talking about, I think he means the usual way in which "lucid dreaming" vs "astral projection" subjects usually degrade into ego matches.
I think we're quite capable here to discuss this subject in a meaningful way. :)

Most of us here are quite open minded in our interpretations of our experiences... however, most of us here also tend to agree upon some of the "hows" and the "whys" of projection.
That's not to say we don't dot our i's and cross our t's slightly different though on certain subjects, but the point is we do all still use i's and t's regardless of how they're dotted or crossed. ;)

Re: Lucid Dreaming vs Astral Projection

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:14 pm
by Methiculous
Xanth wrote:But as for what Michael is talking about, I think he means the usual way in which "lucid dreaming" vs "astral projection" subjects usually degrade into ego matches.


Yup!
I sometimes use too many words, but that sums it up quite nicely.

There is no ego in dreams is there? You become a completely different person free from your ego-self. It's a respite from reality as I call it. The ultimate vacation. Only when we come back and try to analyze it do we get confused and use logic and ego to explain it all. But words and labels have no meaning in dreams.......... You either know or you don't know. Didn't Yoda say something like that. "There is no try, only do!" He's a wise sage.