Very Little That's Physical...

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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Bedeekin » Fri May 17, 2013 12:24 pm

Xanth wrote:
Jack Reacher wrote:But yeah... back to the point. Everything is an opinion, everything should be treated as such.


This is the reason I am growing weary of forums (over the past year or so). They're just full of opinions. Why bother recounting any knowledge you may have worked hard at to achieve if it is just an 'opinion'?

Opinions can also be broken down into quality let's not forget. If a diver tells me that in his opinion the Northern waters are saltier than the southern... I'll tend to take his opinion as an informed probability. If someone tells me that in their opinion the water isn't saltier because they read about deep see diving and that's their learned opinion... then that is a moot opinion.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Majic » Fri May 17, 2013 1:57 pm

I have a dollar each way on opinions and think they are fine as long as we accept thats what they are and can discuss and move forward. There is or should be an experience that lead to an opinion and thats nice to read about and in sharing I find that I look at what I have done in a more thorough way and if someone disagrees thats fine, it just means there opinion is different.

What irks me is when something is claimed as an absolute truth from "knowing" and there is no room for debate off the fact that the knowing is a leap of faith and should be treated as such. I am willing to believe that due to something I dont know or have not experienced I may be wrong but rarely see this openness reflected back in a way that the believer can accept that due to something they dont know they may be wrong. Passion and belief have got us a long way as a species but can also become a barrier

I tend to think along the lines that no matter what its the exception that proves (disproves) the rule.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Fri May 17, 2013 3:56 pm

I was referring to my NP experiences as well as talking to a few people whom I know well and trust. I take that as well as the testimony of many reputable people from all over the world, documents and footage, the unfathomable size of our universe alone in addition to the mathematical equations that all say yes, this is real. Strangely, I now feel compelled to say that I cannot personally compute the mathematical equations but I will take that huge leap of faith and believe the people who can.

I wrote a detailed account of a NPR experience that I thought was amazing and led to objective facts and validations. It was a once in a lifetime kind of experience but then I quickly deleted it. It's not proof of anything when others believe that NPR experiences are nothing more than an unexplained phenomenon of the brain. That doesn't account for the objective facts that I learned and and had no easily explanation for how I got them so the only possibilities left to a non believer is that I am a liar or off my rocker, maybe both. I am neither and don't care to be labeled as such so it was best that I deleted it.

What irks me is when something is claimed as an absolute truth from "knowing" and there is no room for debate off the fact that the knowing is a leap of faith and should be treated as such. I am willing to believe that due to something I don't know or have not experienced I may be wrong but rarely see this openness reflected back in a way that the believer can accept that due to something they don't know they may be wrong. Passion and belief have got us a long way as a species but can also become a barrier


Don't let my personal truth irk you, majic. I don't deserve that kind of "power" over your feelings especially when I made no absolute truth statements. I only said what I know to be true for me.

If you tell me that you love your kids, I will believe that and know it to be the truth. Naturally, there are no scientific tests that can prove your love and your words and actions towards your children may appear genuine enough but both could be faked. So why would I believe your love to be real? The answer is because I personally know love is real.

And I assure you, you will not be open to being told your love for your kids isn't real even though it can't be proven objectively by science and I will be waiting till the end of time to see that openness reflected back.

But there really isn't anything that anyone should worry about. The sun will still rise tomorrow even though someone knows something is true without scientific evidence at his personal hand. In case anyone is concerned about my mental health, I want to say thank you for the concern but don't be. I consider myself successful and happy and should the odd occasion arise that I must denounce my attitude towards aliens and other phenomena or face severe consequences, I am sound enough to do that. So there, no one should be annoyed or concerned. Thanks anyways.

I guess there actually is a limit of the boundaries after all, that's a shame.
Last edited by astralzombie on Fri May 17, 2013 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Majic » Fri May 17, 2013 6:00 pm

Don't let my personal truth irk you, majic. I don't deserve that kind of "power" over your feelings especially when I made no absolute truth statements


I hope I haven't given the wrong impression as I don't need to agree with any opinions and don't need others to be proven right or wrong to feel good about my experiences. All I want in the end is to share experiences and be able to do so without a bias either way and that means not being excluded from a discussion because I might think differently.

I think I have said many times that I have seen and experienced enough in the NP to question a lot of daily life and what it appears to be and see the NP as another reality so all good there. If do feel that we have only just stepped into this new place and don't have the tools to explore far just now. The only common thread is awareness between the two worlds

It's not proof of anything when others believe that NPR experiences are nothing more than an unexplained phenomenon of the brain


I think daily life could be explained that way as well to a certain point. NPR experiences I feel are very real but not in the same way as WR and the realm is a lot different, I tend to not want to make any correlation between the two, it would be like doing the same thing in a new place and I just dont see why you would do that
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Sat May 18, 2013 12:11 am

I think daily life could be explained that way as well to a certain point.


I absolutely agree with that. The saying, " To save a life is to save the whole world ", refers to that notion as well.

In all honesty, he can't. Nobody can.
-Xanth

I feel differently. I said that I haven't personally had an encounter of the third kind but how could you say this to someone who personally has? :? Some people are certainly struggling to get a grip with this reality and there are plenty of liars but there's way too many reputable people with a lot to lose for stating what they know to be true w/out scientific proof in hand.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Xanth » Sat May 18, 2013 10:50 am

astralzombie wrote:-Xanth

I feel differently. I said that I haven't personally had an encounter of the third kind but how could you say this to someone who personally has? :? Some people are certainly struggling to get a grip with this reality and there are plenty of liars but there's way too many reputable people with a lot to lose for stating what they know to be true w/out scientific proof in hand.

Oh definitely! I couldn't agree more.
And this also goes for things such as projection and other metaphysical occurrences.
There's just too much data out there for anyone to put their head in the dirt and claim it all doesn't exist. lol
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Sat May 18, 2013 11:55 am

If we were all asked to create an animal that doesn't actually exist, there would be millions of totally different creations.
Ask those who experience the NP what's it like, your answers will follow a few different paths.
Random is a multitude of single possibilities.
Actual is only a few possibilities with a lot of commonality.
We never hear of a six headed dog covered in feathers that lives in hot water springs.
We do hear of that soft pull of glass when leaving the room through a window in the NP.
Which one of the above sounds real?
Both are subjective.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Tue May 21, 2013 1:09 am

Szaxx wrote:If we were all asked to create an animal that doesn't actually exist, there would be millions of totally different creations.
Ask those who experience the NP what's it like, your answers will follow a few different paths.
Random is a multitude of single possibilities.
Actual is only a few possibilities with a lot of commonality.
We never hear of a six headed dog covered in feathers that lives in hot water springs.
We do hear of that soft pull of glass when leaving the room through a window in the NP.
Which one of the above sounds real?
Both are subjective.


...are you high?
A particle physicist is a collection of atoms that have gotten together to observe themselves.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Tue May 21, 2013 2:21 am

Rofl.
Nice one.
Not at all. I don't even drink.
It's a validation on perspective of opinions. By a common association the truth can be found. It's subject to all opinions being based upon a reality (objective and subjective), not an indoctrination.
Remember flat Earth?
If you prefer, too many cooks spoil the broth.
The number of unsubstantiated opinions is far greater than those who have worked at the relevant subject. This is a high ratio and does make any comments from a real experience dissapear in a sea of discontent.
Its a fact in all subjects. Unfortunately the proof of a subjective experience is conditional on the reader having an experience in the first place.
Catch 22...
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Tue May 21, 2013 2:48 am

...where is all of this coming from??!! I have no idea what your point is now im pretty lost.

EDIT: On a second read I get where you are coming from, at first glance it just sounded like ramblings of some senile man whom the family just tolerates.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Tue May 21, 2013 3:43 am

You may need to read things twice. Im far from senile and far from illiterate.
There's many truths and most get hidden by the pointless comments of those with so little experience if any.
A good film with long and frequent adverts is an example. You lose the interest.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Tue May 21, 2013 4:54 am

Szaxx wrote:You may need to read things twice. Im far from senile and far from illiterate.
There's many truths and most get hidden by huge rambles with little point if any.
A good film with long and frequent adverts is an example. You lose the interest.


Thats what I got on my first read. Perhaps I should read again?
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Xanth » Tue May 21, 2013 11:22 am

Szaxx wrote:If we were all asked to create an animal that doesn't actually exist, there would be millions of totally different creations.
Ask those who experience the NP what's it like, your answers will follow a few different paths.
Random is a multitude of single possibilities.
Actual is only a few possibilities with a lot of commonality.
We never hear of a six headed dog covered in feathers that lives in hot water springs.
We do hear of that soft pull of glass when leaving the room through a window in the NP.
Which one of the above sounds real?
Both are subjective.

Well, I for one understand what you're trying to say. And I agree wholeheartedly.
I'd go as far as saying that if you asked a million people that question, you would get a million answers.

When it comes to subjective data, people try to find commonalities in what they read about. That's the only reason people say stuff like "I've experienced that!"... when the truth is they're just identifying with something they experienced and not the experience itself.

There are almost 7 billion people experiencing this reality right now... there are 7 billion differing perspectives on what this reality is.

Also, please, let's try to keep the discussion as positive as possible.
:-)
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Majic » Tue May 21, 2013 2:25 pm

This subjectiveness is along the lines of taste. You can't describe a taste but need to express a taste in terms of a comparison. "yes I like it, it tastes a bit like orange when it is fresh" and so the common ground is the meeting point but always a sort of compromise. YOu can agree that you both like the taste of orange but can't help but say orange tastes like.....
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Tue May 21, 2013 3:33 pm

http://db.tt/SC2xArHg

Its a representation of what good is actually available.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Xanth » Tue May 21, 2013 5:39 pm

Majic wrote:This subjectiveness is along the lines of taste. You can't describe a taste but need to express a taste in terms of a comparison. "yes I like it, it tastes a bit like orange when it is fresh" and so the common ground is the meeting point but always a sort of compromise. YOu can agree that you both like the taste of orange but can't help but say orange tastes like.....

Exactly.

There is more than a single layer of subjectiveness going on here.

Taste is probably the ultimate example of it. As you said, people will say that an orange tastes like an orange... but how exactly do you know that what YOU are tasting as an orange is exactly how someone else says an orange tastes like. LoL It's a thought that boggles the mind when you really begin to think about it... however, I guess a materialist wouldn't be very mind-boggled at that.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Majic » Tue May 21, 2013 7:39 pm

One of the small thoughts that can soak up a very long bike ride, one of my others is " what color is a leaf in the dark - is it still green" referring to my thoughts on color being only an illusion or a property under a set of conditions.

I can play that one for untold hours
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Tue May 21, 2013 8:22 pm

Taste is probably the ultimate example of it. As you said, people will say that an orange tastes like an orange... but how exactly do you know that what YOU are tasting as an orange is exactly how someone else says an orange tastes like. LoL It's a thought that boggles the mind when you really begin to think about it... however, I guess a materialist wouldn't be very mind-boggled at that.


"To save a life is to save the world."

One of the small thoughts that can soak up a very long bike ride, one of my others is " what color is a leaf in the dark - is it still green" referring to my thoughts on color being only an illusion or a property under a set of conditions.

I can play that one for untold hours


I took a creative writing class in college and on the first day the professor brought a watermelon to class. He told us that if anybody could correctly guess what color it was on the inside at that exact moment, they would get an A for the semester. He said the specific shade didn't matter just guess a color. Everybody wrote down, red or yellow and a few deep thinkers figured that it was a trick and guessed green thinking, the prof was slick and brought an unripe melon. He looked over the answers and said we were all wrong.

Well how many colors do watermelons come in. He cut it open and it was red. So what the hell? His reply was that when he asked the question, the watermelon had no color inside since there was no light to be reflected from the pigments. His point was that we always need to think deeper if we want to WOW someone. It was a cool thing to think about and a damn good melon to boot.

So with that in mind, what color are those leaves in the dark?
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Xanth » Tue May 21, 2013 8:45 pm

I guess that just goes right back to the tree in the woods, eh?

Of which, Tom Campbell can actually provide an answer for. LoL
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Majic » Tue May 21, 2013 9:29 pm

LOL - you got it. I know it is not green as there is no light to bring out this property unless I put some on the leaf and then it will not be in the dark.

I use it for a fun exercise just to loosely focus or just notice what my mind wants to tell me. In reality the strongest image that always seems to flow in is one of small crystals between opaque and sort of white but really I can't see in the dark and dont really need an answer
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