Very Little That's Physical...

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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Wed May 15, 2013 12:25 am

Now I understand your point. For life to simply be, it would invoke a thought that its the primary state of all there is. Its the beginning of everything. The base state. Anything else would be an evolution from it to a higher state of existance.
I can accept this. The higher states we experience when out of body are a reflection of this too.
It's a valid concept.

The only physical energy would be things inertia and the reduction of reactive elements to a lower state, valence electrons etc.
Things like electromagnetics and gravitics are not physical forms of energy. They have a physical effectivity and these effects are what we utilise. It's a totally different subject and not one person on earth understands energy fully. Explaining the basic quadrature relationship of it takes an understanding of multidimensional theory. Not really applicable to this topic.
Everything and everyone I've met with have had some purpose in one way or another. Its that basic, what would be the point of all this existance we've accepted as the norm without some kind of requirement/purpose of being?
I'm a few posts behind at present and like this topic.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Wed May 15, 2013 1:36 am

Im not denying that people have a purpose, I believe we are all the artists of our own great picture, you gotta create your own meaning and purpose and it is never given to you. So basically I don't think purpose is a requirement for life or anything to exist. You say what would be the point without purpose, well obviously there would be no point at all. Just because we don't like that doesn't mean it can't be true.

I see time as linear, the universe started devoid of life. There was a time before the Earth and our solar system was created where there was no such thing as consciousness. If you think about it during those years before life started on any planet and the universe was still creating stars out of atoms and such, nothing would have been conscious. And this is pretty much 99% of the time the universe has been around. You start to realise in the main big picture, life itself really isn't that significant. It will come and go like a blink of an eye, and never resurface again. Thats the big truth.

Having said that you can still find signifance and value in the context of your own life, but thats about it.
A particle physicist is a collection of atoms that have gotten together to observe themselves.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Wed May 15, 2013 4:18 am

Jack, out of interest from your comments, you view time as being linear. This is an astute observation but ties your beliefs to a physical only existance. Time can be pumped electromagnetically and this has been proved. The effect is a destabilization from linearity. It's linear in a local environment only. This is another subject way off topic.
As your apparent ideals are under speculation can you give some idea of your non physical experiences. What have you experienced that fixes your physical world only ideal.
I'm very interested in your answer.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Bedeekin » Wed May 15, 2013 1:41 pm

Xanth wrote:Ok, I know this is going to sound REALLY STRANGE... but bare with me. :)

Why is there very little that's physical that really matters?

Because everything that you see here is virtual. This goes for the non-physical as well. It's all just virtual.
The only "real" things here are the consciousnesses interacting... non-physical consciousnesses. Everything is only consciousness. Consciousness interacting with consciousness.
That's all that's required to grow, at least two consciousnesses interacting.

And now that I think about it, when you look at it from that perspective, you don't even need a virtual reality anymore in order to grow as a consciousness.

Now obviously, that leads to the question: So what's the point of this physical life then?
The virtual realities we experience provide the rules and limitations in order for us to figure this out.

I know, crazy, eh?


Hey...

I agree... it's virtual... a simulation... but not the same as what we understand as simulated. Virtual means almost... tangible almost to the point of real. But this is real... as real as a basis of comparison to 'not real' than there is. It's not copying anything is it? It's not simulating an already MORE REAL reality. But... you're young and you will come full circle on many things... different thoughts and qualia will change your current thinking. As you evolve and age you will come to other conclusions.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Wed May 15, 2013 3:08 pm

Sounds like he has to stare at a sunflower for a long time. Usually brings me back to reality. Notice that its geometric shape and its entire being is just random, it isn't really a sunflower thats just a name we gave it. Its just this strange thing tht grew out of the ground due to nature, and as you stare at it you realise its existence is completely and utterly indifferent to you, whether you are conscious or not or whether you exist or not, the sunflower just is.

You could probably do this with any object... the most interesting is to do it to your body, then yourself.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Wed May 15, 2013 3:16 pm

To say that life began from a puddle of random chemicals mixed together by chance assumes a lot more than any creation theory. Life can't be all that fragile and unique according to the primordial gooists theory. The goo theory also assumes that this once in a "lifetime" event also worked out some extremely difficult obstacles simultaneously in a single moment. That is to say, life is not only accidental, it is extremely lucky. The first form of life that emerged from goo not only lucked out with that "spark" to exist, it also hit the jackpot when it was able to utilize some other form of energy to sustain it's existence. To top that off, it was lucky enough to have an environment that it was compatible to live in. As if that wasn't enough, this first form of life was also blessed by random chance to have the ability to reproduce an thus continue this random existence on earth that we call life. That's a lot to be overcome by random chance.

We see no evidence today that suggests life can emerge from nothing more than the right mix of chemicals but to the contrary, we know without a doubt, that intelligent beings not only have the ability to create all sorts of things, these beings also thrive at it and seek the creations out.

We are on the cusp of understanding the secrets of creating life. This didn't happen by random chance or luck but only because a monumental amount of deliberate effort and focus has been directed in that area by a lot of people over the centuries. Even then, we would still be a long way away from creating consciousness. Not just intelligence, but consciousness. But we are a young civilization. Imagine a civilization that is twice , ten, or even a thousand times older than we are. Where would they be in the sciences of life creation?
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Wed May 15, 2013 3:26 pm

You say its unlikely but how do you really know the probablilties? The universe is so massive that amount of opportunities for this to occur are staggering. Whats more, say all this didnt happen by random chance, and that the conditions for life just never arised. Then something else equally as strange may have started somewhere else, and it would have been normal. Thats how I sorta view life, we call it life but what it really is is just one complicated pattern out of an ocean of others.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Wed May 15, 2013 4:07 pm

Back in the 70's a mix of amino acids and minerals precisely worked out were sealed into a large vessel. Given an atmosphere of mostly hydrogen sulphide with other gases again precisely worked out. This vessel was kept at a precise temperature and an artificial electric storm was left to run for some time.
Tests being made at regular intervals revealed life starting up in its most basic form.
Not too sure if its still in operation, probably not. The guy who pays for the research probably pulled the financial plug for a designer suit or similar...
The soup inside the vessel has the same toxicity as cyanide gas to human life.
Life started.
At 99 celcius theres a bacteria that thrives. At 96 celcius it dies. Its used for metal coatings on sea fixtures preventing buildup of barnacles and the like.
There's other bacteria that only live below 4 centigrade, not sure if these have any purpose to make money.
Whats deadly to one is fruitful to another life form.
Life finds a way, it's not fragile at all. It adapts and evolves around the gradual environmental change.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Wed May 15, 2013 6:31 pm

Its fragile in the long term sense, in the sense that it will only be around in existence for less than 1% of the universes life span.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Wed May 15, 2013 8:48 pm

Naturally I can't fathom the possibilities that exist in our galaxy, much less the entire universe. Personally, I already know that life from other places already exist. I am equally sure of this as others are sure that they don't exist and I have the same amount of objective evidence as naysayers do for any of their dismissive beliefs. :geek:

I have never been abducted or prodded. I can't say that I have ever met one face to face. I have no privileged inside sources or information but I still know. :ugeek:

Some may say that makes me delusional. I know they exist just like I know I love my mother even though I can't prove that either. I don't wear a tin foil hat. I don't care what their agendas are. I make no decisions on living my daily life based around alien life other than a way to pass my time when I'm bored or just feel like being amazed. But if that makes me delusional, then anybody who reads a book of fiction or watches a movie for entertainment is delusional as well. :ugeek:
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Thu May 16, 2013 12:07 am

...there is a huge difference between being interested in fiction and truely believing that you know life exists on other planets without any evidence at all. You can speculate about it but without any logical arguement or evidence...how can you know?
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Thu May 16, 2013 12:14 am

Yo gotta wear a tin hat and don't forget the piece of straw ya bin a chewin for months.
You can then think on the bestist motto around.
Life the final frontear.

Couldn't resist lol.

There's crazy and some...
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Thu May 16, 2013 2:33 am

Well...it's like I said. I know that I love my mother but I can't prove that in an objective manner either. And it's like the other comment I made; I know it is real just as you know it isn't and we both have the same amount of objective evidence so I analyze it through my own subjective experiences. I'm just not asking bluntly how you know this isn't real because nothing can prove a negative.

Science actually already provides a valid paradigm that suggests we can continue to exist in some form of energy even after the death of our physical bodies. All we have to do is accept that we are a form of energy, even if we don't fully understand that form or completely understand energy itself.

The law of conservation says that energy can't be created or destroyed, only transferred. Take a look at a star from that perspective. It may take ten thousand light years for it's light to reach us and at some point during that time, the star itself may have already died. Perhaps millions of years before we even caught a glimpse of it but the death of the star did not mean the death of it's energy. We know this to be a fact yet many people dismiss this when we are talking about us. That's perfectly understandable and acceptable coming from Joe Q. Public.

However, when scientists completely dismiss the paradigm for no other reason than personal beliefs, it can be viewed as a violation of the very foundations of science itself. Since there is no objective evidence that disproves any of this, it can only be a personal belief that makes them dismiss it from the start. There are many people who have proven to be frauds and phonies but this doesn't equate to the whole concept being phonie. Nothing halts scientific progress faster than a closed mind.

In the sciences, reputation and peer acknowledgement are just as important as are results to a scientist's career, so it's easy to understand why there is a lot of reluctance and hesitation on their part to lend credibility to a "fringe" theory by researching and conducting their own independent studies. It's understandable but disappointing at best and a disservice at its worst.

Thankfully, some scientists do recognize the validity of all this and forge forward while others look into this with the mindset that this can be disproved, yet their results say otherwise. From both , we have a good amount of data from their studies that say there is indeed something "going on". They're aware that most of these claims are considered to be "out there" so most researchers use unquestionable and higher standards by which to measure their observations. They also have to take into account that many of these areas can't be measured by conventional standards because if they could, they would no longer meet the definition of paranormal. See the studies from Berkley, Stanford, and Yale to name just a few. Their results show that while there were some people whose claims could not stand up to scrutiny, there were others who were able to constantly meet their claims and random chance was far surpassed as being a possibility. That's objective evidence but many people still dismiss these studies due to their own personal beliefs and bias.

Subjective evidence is the least desirable evidence in a scientific study but it is evidence and we have a ton of it. So I have to wonder. When science itself provides a great paradigm and there is both objective and subjective evidence, why do so many scientists have such a deep aversion to something that is really important to eighty percent of the people here on Earth? If they aren't interested, that's fine, but they shouldn't scoff at the others who are and want to study it. It should make everyone wonder, even the skeptics, especially the skeptics. :ugeek: :D :ugeek:
Last edited by astralzombie on Thu May 16, 2013 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Thu May 16, 2013 2:51 am

80% of scientific study is subjective.
A mathematical series or equasion proves in math, that X should happen.
Subjectivity abounds. Then they'll work on this to prove it objectively.
Life works around the Fibonacci series, look at the shapes of prehistoric molluscs, it's inherent in their design. The seeds of a sunflower are the same.
Then on our subjective studies of the art we engage in they scoff. On their mind is the mathematical proof of some 13 dimensions.
Go figure...
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby astralzombie » Thu May 16, 2013 4:35 am

Then on our subjective studies of the art we engage in they scoff. On their mind is the mathematical proof of some 13 dimensions.
Go figure..


Isn't that funny?

We have the dedicated scoffers in science who can't believe anything until it can be grown in a test tube. Well, that's how science should be, so no problem there. But when they have mathematics equations that suggest we live in a real world of multiple dimensions yet they still won't even consider other possibilities, it seems that they are only being narrow minded or intimidated by such a monumental endeavor. I can't say that I blame them if they are intimidated, I can't even muster or contribute a fart in that hurricane, so they have my sympathies.

However, if some of the revolutionary theories coming out of quantum physics are correct, science will not only run into a brick wall here shortly, they will be splitting their heads open on it until they do a 180. Newtons, Teslas, and Einsteins aren't born everyday so we may have to wait awhile for that next guy or gal to come along and make that intuitive leap.

I believe it was Max Planck, the father of quantum physics, who said that God will be found through quantum physics. He may well be right. ;)
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Thu May 16, 2013 4:25 pm

astralzombie wrote:Well...it's like I said. I know that I love my mother but I can't prove that in an objective manner either. And it's like the other comment I made; I know it is real just as you know it isn't and we both have the same amount of objective evidence so I analyze it through my own subjective experiences. I'm just not asking bluntly how you know this isn't real because nothing can prove a negative.

Science actually already provides a valid paradigm that suggests we can continue to exist in some form of energy even after the death of our physical bodies. All we have to do is accept that we are a form of energy, even if we don't fully understand that form or completely understand energy itself.

The law of conservation says that energy can't be created or destroyed, only transferred. Take a look at a star from that perspective. It may take ten thousand light years for it's light to reach us and at some point during that time, the star itself may have already died. Perhaps millions of years before we even caught a glimpse of it but the death of the star did not mean the death of it's energy. We know this to be a fact yet many people dismiss this when we are talking about us. That's perfectly understandable and acceptable coming from Joe Q. Public.

However, when scientists completely dismiss the paradigm for no other reason than personal beliefs, it can be viewed as a violation of the very foundations of science itself. Since there is no objective evidence that disproves any of this, it can only be a personal belief that makes them dismiss it from the start. There are many people who have proven to be frauds and phonies but this doesn't equate to the whole concept being phonie. Nothing halts scientific progress faster than a closed mind.

In the sciences, reputation and peer acknowledgement are just as important as are results to a scientist's career, so it's easy to understand why there is a lot of reluctance and hesitation on their part to lend credibility to a "fringe" theory by researching and conducting their own independent studies. It's understandable but disappointing at best and a disservice at its worst.

Thankfully, some scientists do recognize the validity of all this and forge forward while others look into this with the mindset that this can be disproved, yet their results say otherwise. From both , we have a good amount of data from their studies that say there is indeed something "going on". They're aware that most of these claims are considered to be "out there" so most researchers use unquestionable and higher standards by which to measure their observations. They also have to take into account that many of these areas can't be measured by conventional standards because if they could, they would no longer meet the definition of paranormal. See the studies from Berkley, Stanford, and Yale to name just a few. Their results show that while there were some people whose claims could not stand up to scrutiny, there were others who were able to constantly meet their claims and random chance was far surpassed as being a possibility. That's objective evidence but many people still dismiss these studies due to their own personal beliefs and bias.

Subjective evidence is the least desirable evidence in a scientific study but it is evidence and we have a ton of it. So I have to wonder. When science itself provides a great paradigm and there is both objective and subjective evidence, why do so many scientists have such a deep aversion to something that is really important to eighty percent of the people here on Earth? If they aren't interested, that's fine, but they shouldn't scoff at the others who are and want to study it. It should make everyone wonder, even the skeptics, especially the skeptics. :ugeek: :D :ugeek:


First I for one believe life exists on other planets, the it just seems in all probability there should be some. but I don't know it. Now im not asking you to prove it yourself, im just asking how can you know? You say through personal experiences and at the same time you have never been ubducted or anything like that... what experiences have put you in a position that you know?
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Xanth » Thu May 16, 2013 5:34 pm

Jack Reacher wrote:First I for one believe life exists on other planets, the it just seems in all probability there should be some. but I don't know it. Now im not asking you to prove it yourself, im just asking how can you know? You say through personal experiences and at the same time you have never been ubducted or anything like that... what experiences have put you in a position that you know?

It's all just opinion.
An opinion based upon a personal experience, is still just an opinion.

Anything anyone says on any forum (or anywhere for that matter), is just an opinion and nobody should ever be taking what's said as fact.

If we're talking about extraterrestrial life... I can really only say that I think the odds are in favour of physical life existing elsewhere in this universe.
I think it's more likely that the "ufos" we see today are some kind of combination between sleep paralysis and other realities/dimensions.

But yeah... back to the point. Everything is an opinion, everything should be treated as such.

It's always the difference between a truth and a personal truth. My original assertion that I made to start this thread is my personal truth... it's certainly not the truth. lol
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Jack Reacher » Fri May 17, 2013 8:23 am

..thats now really what I mean. Im simply asking how he can know something that is beyond our current understanding.
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Szaxx » Fri May 17, 2013 9:46 am

Jack Reacher wrote:..thats now really what I mean. Im simply asking how he can know something that is beyond our current understanding.


That's where the maths comes in.
Mathematical models on proven formula give a very good estimation .
The faults lie in anomalies or in real terms, what they've guessed and don't want to know the truth. Flat Earth syndrome.
Then it all starts again...
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Re: Very Little That's Physical...

Postby Xanth » Fri May 17, 2013 11:38 am

Jack Reacher wrote:..thats now really what I mean. Im simply asking how he can know something that is beyond our current understanding.

In all honesty, he can't. Nobody can.

But then, that's the difference between a truth and a personal truth.
He has a personal truth regarding the matter.
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