Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Any questions you have regarding any of the following experiences: Astral Projections, Out of Body Experiences, Real Time Zone Projections, Phasing, Projection, Lucid Dreaming, Sleep Paralysis, etc... ask them here.

Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Methiculous » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:54 pm

I've said this before and I will say it again. A lucid dream, no matter how real it feels is still a very vivid illusion. I can say this now with more confidence because last night I had an extremely vivid lucid dream (which is rare for me) and I had enough sense of mind to question this very thought from within the dream. (And keep in mind, it still doesn't lessen the wow-factor of it all. I was afraid my analyzing it too much, would ruin it, but it doesn't)

When I first got control of my lucid dream, (which I posted about in the "Share your projections"), it felt so real that I physically felt like I was using my muscles to move. And as I left my 'room' (where it started) I thought to myself, this very thought: All the axons, and synapses, or neural transmitters in our brains firing (I am a laymen and bare with me, but I know a little bit about the brain and that is it), but whatever they do, they must be firing on all cylinders the same as if I was ACTUALLY doing it. And that is why it felt so real. And that is why the illusion was so impeccable. Of course this is my belief and I am only seeing what I want to see and no 1 dream by 1 person should define the truth of what is really going on. But because I thought this in the dream WHILE it was happening it gives it more credence to me.

But later in the dream, as I was walking and commenting on just how real it is, I thought of optical illusions. I was walking in a mall and there was a view of water to my left and shops to my right. The boats in the harbour were picture perfect in detail as far as I could tell. But I looked ahead, and considered this: why is there 'distance' in a dream? It must be an optical illusion. I am neither here nor there. It started to become 'cartoony' at this point and it must have been that very thought that turned it into a '2D drawing that only seemed 3D'. I saw a person in the distance and I tired to pick him up from a distance. It didn't work, but he seemed disturbed by the ordeal as if I had somehow affected him. A dream character was behind me and I didn't look at him, but I could hear him and he said try it again, you can do it! I tried it on another person, who was more like a 2D cartoon now, the dream had become somewhat like that. I was able to bring them closer to me with an imaginary invisible arm, but they still stopped when they hit the 'floor' and were a few yards away.

I've already analyzed my own dream and am starting to think about this more and how my 'perception' changed the dream and all that. This is just an interesting experience, and I wanted to share it. But if YOU want to analyze it too and give your thoughts, THAT'S WHAT THIS FORUM IS FOR!
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
(written by a great poet after a dream... ME!)
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Lucid Dreams and Illusions

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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Bedeekin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:01 pm

Is this concerning the one you said wasn't like any other Lucid Dream you have had?
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Methiculous » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:46 pm

Yes the same one from the other post.
But I had 3 like that so far this year and maybe 20-25 in my life, and there is a clear distinction from other lucid dreams which are more common for me. I must have lucid dreamed at least 300 times and that is a low estimate when you consider a year has 365 nights. But there is a clear distinction between these two types of dreams. I still just call it a lucid dream on steroids, but an astral projection or out of body works for me too. Nomenclature doesn't matter to me, however "lucid dream on steroids sounds good......" :P
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
(written by a great poet after a dream... ME!)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Bedeekin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:05 pm

So your LDs are normally sprung from what you would consider a 'normal dream' whereas this is from a conscious wake state from 'Sleep Paralysis'?
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby ChopstickFox » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:06 am

The brain never gets a "rest" even when we're asleep. :)

I do see exactly where you're coming from with the wanting to put it into "layman" terms. And yeah, certainly biology and the brain are directly to do with it. When I've become lucid I've tried to press the boundaries. Not that I believe there are, but why would it hurt to try? But everything I see is so beyond what I can even fathom as capability. If there's a limit, I don't see it. Call it, the mind shows you what you want to see, but if we broke down to details we would be running circles all day.

Is everything an illusion of what we want to see? I used to try to fully explain it in that way. But I've had experiences that have stepped beyond that possibility. Knowledge that there's no way I could have passively picked up without knowing it. But I had another thought. What am I hurting by believing there is something more? Something we can't quite grasp our minds around. Like the whole world telling us the world is flat, but it's actually round. What will it hurt? People certainly wont kill me over it in this day and age.

I'm afraid that if I try to put a limit on it and try to convince myself it is completely in my mind, my mind will deliver exactly what I want to believe. But it wont hurt to destroy concrete limitations in my mind. I think we are our biggest limiters.

But another part of me really likes to figure things out too. Kind of like two parts of my personality. At least we get along, haha!
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby astralzombie » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:27 am

That was certainly a lot of active thinking and awareness. I would personally call your experience a very lucid dream as well. Now, had you "left" that dream and entered or created another setting, that would qualify as an OOBE for me. We all have to decide our own standards and then see where each experience falls based on it.

If all of our experiences were nothing more than varying degrees of "dreams", I wonder what would be the evolutionary purpose to have this ability. How does it really contribute to survival. Nothing about evolutions suggests to me that the ability to subconsciously create dreamscapes, serves a purpose to enhance our chances of physical survival. It would be a waste of energy and brain function. Wouldn't we be better served from that stance, to use this brain space and function for the betterment of our physical senses or something like that.

Personally, I can't accept that all of our experiences are just dreams anymore. I have had a few validations and have personally seen things that conventional science can't explain for me. Then there is phasing where we enter these "dreams" with total awareness from start to finish. Although lucid dreams and OOBE are played on the same field, they are completely different games IMO.

With that said, I completely understand that we are capable of believing anything that makes us feel comfortable. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Xanth » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:30 am

Michael Scannell wrote:I've said this before and I will say it again. A lucid dream, no matter how real it feels is still a very vivid illusion. I can say this now with more confidence because last night I had an extremely vivid lucid dream (which is rare for me) and I had enough sense of mind to question this very thought from within the dream. (And keep in mind, it still doesn't lessen the wow-factor of it all. I was afraid my analyzing it too much, would ruin it, but it doesn't)

Perhaps we should start a new thread on that topic... what exactly is an "illusion" in reference to something you can experience?

When I first got control of my lucid dream, (which I posted about in the "Share your projections"), it felt so real that I physically felt like I was using my muscles to move. And as I left my 'room' (where it started) I thought to myself, this very thought: All the axons, and synapses, or neural transmitters in our brains firing (I am a laymen and bare with me, but I know a little bit about the brain and that is it), but whatever they do, they must be firing on all cylinders the same as if I was ACTUALLY doing it. And that is why it felt so real. And that is why the illusion was so impeccable. Of course this is my belief and I am only seeing what I want to see and no 1 dream by 1 person should define the truth of what is really going on. But because I thought this in the dream WHILE it was happening it gives it more credence to me.

I've tested the "physicality" and "realness" of projection experiences many times. I've tested water... grass... branches... wood fences... concrete ground and poles... they all *feel* exactly as they would in this physical reality. No difference what-so-ever. The conclusion I've drawn is that what I experience as non-physical exploration is every bit as "real" as this physical reality.

But later in the dream, as I was walking and commenting on just how real it is, I thought of optical illusions. I was walking in a mall and there was a view of water to my left and shops to my right. The boats in the harbour were picture perfect in detail as far as I could tell. But I looked ahead, and considered this: why is there 'distance' in a dream? It must be an optical illusion. I am neither here nor there. It started to become 'cartoony' at this point and it must have been that very thought that turned it into a '2D drawing that only seemed 3D'. I saw a person in the distance and I tired to pick him up from a distance. It didn't work, but he seemed disturbed by the ordeal as if I had somehow affected him. A dream character was behind me and I didn't look at him, but I could hear him and he said try it again, you can do it! I tried it on another person, who was more like a 2D cartoon now, the dream had become somewhat like that. I was able to bring them closer to me with an imaginary invisible arm, but they still stopped when they hit the 'floor' and were a few yards away.

What you're referring to are "perceptions". That is something that will be different than your physical experience and can literally change on a whim.

I've already analyzed my own dream and am starting to think about this more and how my 'perception' changed the dream and all that. This is just an interesting experience, and I wanted to share it. But if YOU want to analyze it too and give your thoughts, THAT'S WHAT THIS FORUM IS FOR!

My only suggestion would be to hold off on analyzing your experiences for now. Collect much more data first... THEN analyze.
Or at least, analyze but don't come to any firm opinions yet. It's okay to believe something, especially if you have some experience to back it up... but the more experience you gain, the stronger your opinion will become too.

You're definitely on the right track (well as per MY experiences LoL) though. :)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Methiculous » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:29 pm

Ask me in a year's time what I believe and it may be different. I am not attached to any one idea and like to consider myself open minded.

But you can alter your perception in a lucid dream the same way you can when looking at an optical illusion. Many people know that famous picture in which it is both a young woman and an old lady depending on how you look at it. Or an even simpler example we may have all experienced is: Imagine a shallow, clear pond with no waves. You can see the reflection on the water of the clouds above with perfect clarity. But if you adjust your focus, you can then blur the clouds and see the rocks at the bottom of the pond with clarity too. You don't have to adjust your eyes, you simply adjust your mind's attention. I think that is the main reason why it became 2 dimensional at the end. I did it by viewing it as an optical illusion.

And I still don't want to over analyze these experiences because I am afraid I will ruin for myself. However, I could also gain more 'abilities' in the dream if I start seeing it as an illusion so it doesn't create 'mental blocks'. Sometimes I think something is impossible like grabbing an object that is too far to reach. There is no reason why I couldn't pick something up 10 feet away from me and feel it in my hand as though I am actually touching it. Even if I don't see my arm in the dream, why wouldn't I be able to feel it from a distance. As of yet, I have never been able to do that... ( think I only tried once actually)... but seeing it as an illusion may actually be beneficial and open up many more possible feats in a dream I think are impossible when I am there. But they aren't!
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
(written by a great poet after a dream... ME!)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Methiculous » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:37 pm

Bedeekin wrote:So your LDs are normally sprung from what you would consider a 'normal dream' whereas this is from a conscious wake state from 'Sleep Paralysis'?


Yea, 90-95% of my lucid dreams start from a dream in which I realize I am dreaming. But ones that start from a form of Sleep Paralysis are always more vivid and I am more alert. I think it has something to do with the fear causing adrenaline to be released which wakes up my mind in the dream and makes me alert. And this one was deeper and longer because it occurred around 4 in the morning, before my normal REM phase of dreaming. At least that is my theory. It was like all the stars were aligned and it worked out well.
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
(written by a great poet after a dream... ME!)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Xanth » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:50 pm

But now you're choosing to see it as an illusion. Why not just allow it to be as it is... without judging?
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Methiculous » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:20 am

Because I think too much.
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
(written by a great poet after a dream... ME!)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Bedeekin » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:29 am

Very good answer. :D
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Majic » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:21 pm

I've tested the "physicality" and "realness" of projection experiences many times. I've tested water... grass... branches... wood fences... concrete ground and poles... they all *feel* exactly as they would in this physical reality. No difference what-so-ever. The conclusion I've drawn is that what I experience as non-physical exploration is every bit as "real" as this physical reality.


This testing is not that valid as it can only be as you have experienced before and that is also the conformation that you are looking for. I work with stone a lot at home and rubbing stone is one of the most regular and reliable RC for me. Its starts off as hard, corse and real as it should be until I melt, dislove or whatever to the stone and have my hand inside it. So it starts of as real as I expect until I let go of that and then its also does what I expect in the dream. So both tests are valid and as I expect, nothing proven but plenty gained

I also think we create the ilussion as it is the only way we presently understand to interact with the dreamworld, it appears and feels the same as normal life and its not until you get void experiences or bodyless experiences that you move past this normal way of interactiing.
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Xanth » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:18 am

Oh, I definitely agree with you Majic! No doubt.
I always say it's a personal and unique experience for each person and that kind of nails it nicely.

My experiences and experiments really only work for me. Yet, I still enjoy sharing them. lol

You're right, too... trying to move past the sense of the physicality of everything really helps the experience.
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Methiculous » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:11 pm

Xanth wrote:My experiences and experiments really only work for me. Yet, I still enjoy sharing them.


So true. That is something I can say about my dream I had too. And everyone can say it about their own. And it is fun to share.

One thing I will add is that in all vivid dreams there is a line of horizon. Our mind's are engineered to perceive one. It's how we function when awake. Without a line of horizon there is no up or down or even depth perception, and it starts to feel like you are looking at a 2 dimensional image. And without any frame of reference what so ever you would simply float in a void as Majic describes.

In a lucid dream, I forget when I did this and should try again to reconfirm it, but you can lay down on the ground, look up and then mentally shift your perception so that you are now looking 'horizontally' and it changes everything. Just like an illusion where sometimes you see 'the old woman' and sometimes 'the young woman' and you don't have to squint your eyes, you 'squint' your brain! Then you see it differently and everything changes as a result of it.
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
(written by a great poet after a dream... ME!)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby CFTraveler » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:20 pm

This is a great idea and I'll try to do it the next time I LD.
One of the things that learning to stay conscious in dreamstate has caused that I find disappointing is that I usually now see the 'border' of the dream scene and often see how scenarios change once you look beyond the border, making them look 'fake'. It never ceases to disappoint me.
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Tobi » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:37 pm

astralzombie wrote:That was certainly a lot of active thinking and awareness. I would personally call your experience a very lucid dream as well. Now, had you "left" that dream and entered or created another setting, that would qualify as an OOBE for me. We all have to decide our own standards and then see where each experience falls based on it.

If all of our experiences were nothing more than varying degrees of "dreams", I wonder what would be the evolutionary purpose to have this ability. How does it really contribute to survival. Nothing about evolutions suggests to me that the ability to subconsciously create dreamscapes, serves a purpose to enhance our chances of physical survival. It would be a waste of energy and brain function. Wouldn't we be better served from that stance, to use this brain space and function for the betterment of our physical senses or something like that.

Personally, I can't accept that all of our experiences are just dreams anymore. I have had a few validations and have personally seen things that conventional science can't explain for me. Then there is phasing where we enter these "dreams" with total awareness from start to finish. Although lucid dreams and OOBE are played on the same field, they are completely different games IMO.

With that said, I completely understand that we are capable of believing anything that makes us feel comfortable. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.


Yes I feel this way about things too.
I have heard it said recently that Astral Projection, lucid dreams, OOBE's etc are all basically different forms of "dreaming".... but this isn't what I've experienced personally (haha then we get into the whole "am I dreaming right now?/Did I dream my whole life into existence?/maybe I'm dreaming that I'm dreaming myself from an Astral Plane right now and my physical life is an illusion....kind of stuff, which just basically tangles up my whole brain! I should be able to cope with those philosophies -but I can't. I like things pretty simple.)
OK -but that said, the whole experience of an OOBE or astral projection is SO different from any dream-scenario. Even a lucid dream. The feeling of emerging from a lucid dream is simply like the feeling of waking up out of a "dream" into another state of consciousness entirely.
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Majic » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:41 pm

OK -but that said, the whole experience of an OOBE or astral projection is SO different from any dream-scenario. Even a lucid dream


What is the difference in all of these?
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Xanth » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:01 am

Tobi wrote:OK -but that said, the whole experience of an OOBE or astral projection is SO different from any dream-scenario. Even a lucid dream. The feeling of emerging from a lucid dream is simply like the feeling of waking up out of a "dream" into another state of consciousness entirely.

I've whittled down exactly "why" that is.

It comes down to your level of awareness during each of those experiences you listed.

Basically, at one point or another in my life I've had separate experiences of each of those labels: dreams, lucid dreams, astral projections, out of body experiences.
I've experienced them all separately, so I do have a pretty good idea of what they all feel like, and yes, they do "feel" quite different. There's no doubt about it... and for a very long time I was also stuck in the mindset that because they all felt different that they must also be very different experiences.

Well, what I eventually experienced kind of blew that supposition out of the water... completely.
One night a few years ago, I had all of those experiences within a SINGLE cycle... and each segment of that multi-experience "felt" EXACTLY like the separate experience of each before.
I was dreaming (dream awareness)... I then became aware I was dreaming (lucid awareness)... then I brought forth my full waking awareness (astral awareness)...
In EACH of those steps they felt exactly as you would expect them to feel. The dream was a dream... the lucid dream felt exactly like the lucid dream... and the astral projection felt exactly like what you would expect from an astral projection.

So what's the connecting factor between them all? I certainly didn't "go" anywhere different... there are no "astral planes", "etheric planes" or "dream planes"... there's just consciousness. The connecting factor between all these supposedly different experiences is *YOU*. Really simple, eh? YOU are the difference... or more to the point, your AWARENESS. :)

So yes, they all do feel completely different... but they feel differently because the "you" is slightly more aware and awake in each of them. You see this *SAME* phenomenon in action here in the physical. Check out your awareness upon first waking up in the morning, take notes of how you feel... then compare that awareness to how it feels later in the day after a coffee, or mid day. If you didn't know any better and knew you were physically wide awake, you would swear that they were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES. But we don't question that because we know we're awake. Funny, eh? Bet you've never considered that before, eh? :)

Comparing physical awareness to non-physical awareness is something that nobody does, because nobody seems to see the same connection that I have.

Anyway, that's my story... that's my experience... and so far, that's my conclusion. I do expressly challenge everyone to attempt to have all three experiences in a single go and see for yourself. :)
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Re: Lucid Dreams and Illusions

Postby Majic » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:15 am

Anyway, that's my story... that's my experience... and so far, that's my conclusion. I do expressly challenge everyone to attempt to have all three experiences in a single go and see for yourself


I totally agree with this and its one of the reasons I simply use the term dreamspace and lucid dream. For years without the internet and anyone to discuss with I had all of the experiences and they all led to awareness in the dream and that was it and it is still the case.
A couple of nights back I had a body exit that was an OBE, woke myself up from a lucid dream, went back to the dream by just going there, later on woke up but that was a FA and then back to the lucid dream or lucid state again. Full awareness and playing in the dreamspace, it had been a few weeks so I was sharpening up skills like flying or floating, extending arms to make them long, making and dissolving stuff. Just basic skills that I want to use soon.

These states are always present and its normal to experience more that one is a good nights exploring

I do think there are some what I call deep dreams and they feel different but that is in the same way that a task in WR feels different. Take going shopping for food and say driving you car too fast into a corner on sliding on ice - same person going about their business but a totally different focus for a few instants that do feel like different states of awareness and may be but occur in the same body and same place.
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