Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

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Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby Xanth » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:35 pm

http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2013/ ... ciousness/

I was kind of hoping to get everyone's opinion on the subject of what I wrote?

I feel like people conveniently ignore certain aspects of what they believe in order to retain other aspects of their beliefs... the subject of the link is one such MAJOR observation I've made lately.
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Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby wstein » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:25 pm

Sadly, I see you doing the same thing in your critique that you see in the original article.

For instance "If EVERYTHING IS CONSCIOUSNESS then how can there be any dividing lines in consciousness" suggests that there is only one kind or one aspect to consciousness. Presumably you have interacted with different kinds of beings? While not all are conscious to the level indicated in the original article (capable of dreaming), surely they are not all equivalent.

This statement "If EVERYTHING IS CONSCIOUSNESS, why does this seem to stop people at this imaginary line drawn in the sand where one side says 'physical' and the other side says 'everything else'? " suggests that within the domain of consciousness that all 'information' is of the same type. Do you not distinguish between memories, experience, knowledge, imagination? Though they are all within the same consciousness or mind, they represent different types of stuff. As such there is reasonable cause to treat them differently even if they are all ultimately self created fabrications.
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby Xanth » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:35 pm

My question was pertaining to the idea of ignoring the application of certain beliefs we hold because that direct application would make obsolete another belief.

Per what you wrote... all is consciousness, separation would seem to not be an issue. There would seem to be no distinguishing between all of those labels (memories, experience, knowledge, imagination) from a consciousness perspective. The very application of "everything is consciousness" would have to negate any concept of separateness.
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby wstein » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:21 am

Xanth wrote: Per what you wrote... all is consciousness, separation would seem to not be an issue. There would seem to be no distinguishing between all of those labels (memories, experience, knowledge, imagination) from a consciousness perspective. The very application of "everything is consciousness" would have to negate any concept of separateness.
My point was that consciousness itself has created the distinctions (purposely). The labels are not synonyms, they refer to distinct types of information. Therefore even though they are all of the same source, there IS cause to treat them as different. If indeed consciousness is the only thing, it gets to decide what is different and what is not.

You don’t actually say “all is ONE consciousness”. As without the ‘ONE’ part there can be many consciousnesses they would be inherently separate by definition.

Xanth wrote: My question was pertaining to the idea of ignoring the application of certain beliefs we hold because that direct application would make obsolete another belief.
Either I am drastically not getting what you asked about, in which case my feedback about your writing is that its way not clear to me.

Or, possibly you are holding some (unstated) beliefs about the topics in the original article.
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I am suggesting that you are failing to apply your beliefs about your various types of experiences to invalidate the idea that ‘everything is consciousness’ implies there are no distinctions. You have drawn a line that if it’s all one, there can be no ‘dividing lines’. Yet by even using more than one word, you are in fact utilizing dividing lines. So either your belief that there can be no distinctions is failing to be applied to writing (making it moot), or your experience of distinctions is failing to be applied to there can be no dividing lines (thus allowing consciousness to exist WITH distinctions).

I realize this does not directly address your question, here I am pointing out that you are apparently doing the same thing you note that others are doing. Hopefully food for thought.
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As to directly to the question of inconsistent beliefs:
-beliefs need not be ‘truth’
-beliefs need not apply in the same context
-beliefs can serve a purpose other than represent ‘fact’
-there is nothing to say that consistency is superior to beliefs
-people are not simply logical or rational beings

The short answer is that either ‘those’ people you refer to have not thought through the implications and realized they conflict or they just don’t care if their beliefs conflict.
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This is one of the really big spiritual questions: if it’s all one how can there be any separations? It’s a paradox for sure. Curiously the question of “how can there be any separations?” is still as baffling even if one discards the ‘it’s all one’ idea.
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby Xanth » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:34 pm

wstein wrote:My point was that consciousness itself has created the distinctions (purposely). The labels are not synonyms, they refer to distinct types of information. Therefore even though they are all of the same source, there IS cause to treat them as different. If indeed consciousness is the only thing, it gets to decide what is different and what is not.

You don’t actually say “all is ONE consciousness”. As without the ‘ONE’ part there can be many consciousnesses they would be inherently separate by definition.

I guess then that would be where our opinions diverge. :)
I don't see consciousness as creating the distinctions... I see US, humans, entirely within the limitations of this physical reality creating the distinctions based upon the erroneous belief that we're individuals.
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby Methiculous » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:30 pm

(I wrote this without reading the replies and like to read them after. Perhaps I didn't fully understand the question either, but maybe this relates....)


I've had what I call, OBE-type lucid dreams.
I call them that because I don't think I am actually 'out of body' at all, but it certainly feels that way, and they are different than other lucid dreams.
I tend to get them most of the time after a lucid dream ends and I remain still and relax.

It is my belief that they are the same state of mind, (Theta Brain Wave?), but with one difference:
I am aware of my waking reality surroundings.
I get a false awakening, but it isn't a FA because I am still lucid. And (not always), but they can come with many sensations like floating, sinking, buzzing drone sounds, vibrations in the head and body and all that. Some call that the 'astral body' separating from the 'physical body'. Bedeekin wrote about those sensations in the Sleep Paralysis thread and said they are due to our brain's interpretation of REM muscle atonia. And I agree with that reasoning.

We all have a mental map in our minds, and hold places and objects in them and know the layout of our own home even if we can't see it. So when I get this type of OBE dream, my house can be very similar to how I know it when awake. (I ignore the smaller details and don't realize until I wake up later). The further I stray in my dream environment 'home', the more and more 'holes' in my mental map form, and they get filled with absurd subconscious details and it becomes a completely different world. (Actually it makes me wonder why they simply can't be left blank?)

Right now, when awake, I have a mental picture of my house, but I honestly can't say where the exact placement of every little object on every counter, desk, or kitchen table is. So even now when awake, my reality is a bit of an illusion in my mind and I honestly can't say I know what exists beyond my field of vision or other senses.

(I don't know exactly what I am saying and this is something new I came up with to describe the difference between 'Out of Body' and 'In Body'. Perhaps we are wherever our attention goes.....) (I need to think about this more and my thoughts are incomplete. I'm just shooting the breeze. This is my idea of a fun Sunday night! :lol: :cry: )

One last thing:
I skimmed the article, and I hate it when there is a cheesy picture of a body floating with lightning/energy strands connecting the two. I've never experienced anything like that. I don't know if anybody has. They make it seem so peaceful and spiritual, and it must give people the wrong idea and generates beliefs. Sometimes (not always) for me they can be quite violent, confusing, and bizarre. But I like them and they can be more memorable than the OBE-type lucid dream that ensues afterward.
Last edited by Methiculous on Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby wstein » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:00 pm

Xanth wrote: I don't see consciousness as creating the distinctions... I see US, humans, entirely within the limitations of this physical reality creating the distinctions based upon the erroneous belief that we're individuals.
I am not clear which side of the fence you are on. Seems like you are half and half. It would help if you could clarify.

If you believe it’s all consciousness: then humans are consciousness and anything they ‘create’ is consciousness too. As you have indicated humans created the distinctions, then consciousness (somewhat indirectly) created the distinctions.

If you believe it’s not all consciousness: then there are already distinctions (consciousness and something(s) else) and it’s not really relevant what humans have or have not done.

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Also you have not made it clear if you believe that it all being (one) consciousness rules out distinctions.
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby Methiculous » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:49 pm

Xanth wrote:I feel like people conveniently ignore certain aspects of what they believe in order to retain other aspects of their beliefs...


Even physicists do this when they try to test something and it goes against all the equations they thought they knew and they have to change the whole model of reality to fit their new findings. But people tend to be reluctant. We hate changing our beliefs. It's such a hassle... ;)

There is also a theory that the entire universe is a consciousness. I don't know too much about that, but even before I heard others say it, it had already crossed my mind and I was already thinking it. It just sort of makes sense to me for some reason. It's just something else to think about.

I don't know what I believe, but I must believe in something. Anyone who says they don't is just kidding themselves......
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby CFTraveler » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:55 pm

Xanth, I think you're assuming that other people believe in the same thing you believe, and in the same way.
I agree that there can be different labels for the same things, even if they are the same 'fundamental' thing, if you are going to refer to anything at all, you are going to have to draw an imaginary line so that you have the perspective or point of view to refer to the 'other' thing you want to talk about.
Also, not everyone that believes 'all is One' believes that 'everything is consciousness', especially when the meaning of 'consciousness' is so ambiguous- I think the term is one that someone coined to mean a specific thing and someone else grabbed to mean something entirely different. I'm going to illustrate this:
To some, consciousness is the ability to know about its environment and itself. When I say the sun has consciousness, given this specific definition, I probably mean something different than you do, if you say the sun has consciousness- and we might be coming from entirely different ways of looking at the universe, and that is inevitable.
Something Walter pointed out was that you separated yourself as a human from 'what consciousness is' and created a distinction between yourself and consciousness, as if they were different, yet are saying that they are all the same. Please don't feel I'm asking you to choose one or the other- because, you don't have to. It's perfectly fine to delineate things to observe them, even if you don't believe they exist as objects. But don't assume that someone may believe both things can't be true- we humans have the capacity to go that abstract and yet maintain their concreteness.

This is the problem with assuming everyone has the same definition and also that you know what they believe- A lot of us have provisional beliefs- I believe this until my own experience proves me different, and if it happens, I'm just going to have to look for a belief that works better for me and at the same time supports my 'being here'. And that may necessitate picking and choosing beliefs as if they were underwear- it is not illogical or even surprising to do so, it's what we humans do.
Or you humans, anyway.
See how easy that was?
---
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby astralzombie » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:18 pm

I just don't believe that all is consciousness from our perspective. Even if does take consciousness to maintain the illusions of physicality.

I think it is another one of those metaphors that people get stuck on because we do not have the same experiences to approach it from the same perspective.

I suppose it's fair to say that I clearly believe there are distinctions and a separation. :)
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Re: Conveniently Ignoring Beliefs?

Postby Xanth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:29 pm

astralzombie wrote:I just don't believe that all is consciousness from our perspective. Even if does take consciousness to maintain the illusions of physicality.

I think it is another one of those metaphors that people get stuck on because we do not have the same experiences to approach it from the same perspective.

I suppose it's fair to say that I clearly believe there are distinctions and a separation. :)

You should watch the video I posted in the media section.
The one about describing the universe in less than 3 minutes. :)

As for me, I'm quite convinced that I AM YOU AND YOU ARE ME!! :D LoL
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