Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

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Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Xanth » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:02 pm

So, which is it? When we “project” our consciousness away from this physical reality, are we projecting to something internal to ourselves or external to ourselves?

I’ll answer this from my own experience. Basically, since all is consciousness, there is no “physical body”. There never was, it’s all virtual. So there’s nothing to “separate” from. And since there’s no physical body, there’s nothing “internal” with which you project into. You ARE consciousness, so it’s not so much that you have to get out of your body in order to project… it’s that you need to focus away from what you’re experiencing (this physical) and open yourself to something that isn’t this physical. It’s like a wave, individual among the body of water it is born from. Each of us are a wave OF (not in) the ocean. A wave can’t separate from the ocean, anymore than you can separate from this body of consciousness that we’re all apart of.

So projection isn’t something internal to you… and it’s not external to you either. Why? …because you ARE it. You are the ocean. You are everything. Projection is you experiencing yourself (consciousness) from a slightly different perspective. You’re shifting your perception away from experiencing yourself as one thing, towards experiencing yourself as something else.

Does that make any sense or have I confused the matter more?

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Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby ChopstickFox » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:51 am

I am right there with you. This is a concept that I've felt familiar with, but I lacked confidence in the idea because it was so "out there" compared to what is widely accepted. You guys make me feel less weird... :) I can't exactly go around on the street saying I'm really consciousness and my body is kind of like a temporary biological automaton in this physical reality, now can I? Well I could... but... anyways...

Regardless of this belief and understanding, I often catch myself trying to go out. It was kind of shown to me last night. I purposely didn't try because I usually have better luck not trying. I discovered that I was surrounded by darkness and kind of floating. I wondered if I had left my body and thought it was pretty cool. I saw a door and figured that I'd check it out. Maybe it was the door out. When I opened it, I heard breathing in my ear and got all tingly, finding myself in my body with my husband breathing into my ear. All this wanting to go OUT when I was there the whole time. It's certainly a difficult concept to conquer.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Xanth » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:47 am

ChopstickFox wrote:I am right there with you. This is a concept that I've felt familiar with, but I lacked confidence in the idea because it was so "out there" compared to what is widely accepted. You guys make me feel less weird... :) I can't exactly go around on the street saying I'm really consciousness and my body is kind of like a temporary biological automaton in this physical reality, now can I? Well I could... but... anyways..

Nor should you either. I mean, it's all individual and unique... so, really, nobody else really needs to know anyway. LoL

But yeah, it's a strange concept and feels at first like it "goes against the grain" because we're all raised to be such physically-minded that we don't usually even question anything of this nature.

Regardless of this belief and understanding, I often catch myself trying to go out. It was kind of shown to me last night. I purposely didn't try because I usually have better luck not trying. I discovered that I was surrounded by darkness and kind of floating. I wondered if I had left my body and thought it was pretty cool. I saw a door and figured that I'd check it out. Maybe it was the door out. When I opened it, I heard breathing in my ear and got all tingly, finding myself in my body with my husband breathing into my ear. All this wanting to go OUT when I was there the whole time. It's certainly a difficult concept to conquer.

There's nothing wrong with trying to "separate" and go "out" of body. It's just a point of view. It's also a method in itself in order to experience and explore the non-physical... one of many. I could never get the separation OBE thing going for me, Phasing works much better for me.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby CFTraveler » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:31 pm

Hi there.
I think they're all spectrum of consciousness experiences, and you move your point of view to have a different experience- you know, like in the 'physical' dimension- or physical experience. We move in time and space, are 'born', grow up, mature, and our thoughts processes change. I think it's the same in the 'nonphysical'- you can get out of body (it's a neat experience all in itself) have 'physical' or 'quasi physical' experiences and enjoy the environment- or have more visual or sensorial or even mental experiences. I think it all depends on why you're having it, and how it develops.
Me, I miss my OBEs, especially the vibratory sensations- I almost always phase or RV now.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Xanth » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:58 pm

Every point of view is most welcome here. And welcome with vast quantities of respect! :)

So, CFT, you don't do the classic separation obe anymore? By your tone, it sounds like that wasn't by choice?
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Methiculous » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:25 pm

One thing I ask myself and others if they care to listen is WHERE ARE YOU?
They may say I am in a room, in a house, at the corner of a street, at a certain address, on a planet called Earth......

But that is just your body they are talking about. Where are YOU!? And most of the time people will point to their head. But that is still not where you are.

When awake it feels like we reside in our skulls, and using vision, and sound predominantly to experience reality it feels comfortable to feel behind the eyes and between the ears. But you are not your brain. You (consciousness) are energy, not physical matter and can perceive yourself as being anywhere. You really are nothing BUT perception when you think about it.

But the question is, when you feel like you are perceiving yourself from a different perspective, is it just a vivid hallucination and therefore internal? Even when awake, all we experience is just our own interpretation of waves whether they are light waves, or sounds waves ect., and our interpretations are the same as hallucinations. But they are familiar hallucinations and ones we have come to accept as 'reality', so we don't consider them hallucinations anymore. Without it we would have died off long ago and evolution has made us perceive ourselves as being in a body, behind the eyes and between the ears. It was survival of the fittest that has made us this way and it's hard to avoid tigers and bears when you are projecting your consciousness.

Anyway, as of right now I think it is all internal, but perhaps we need to re-define 'internal'.
Last edited by Methiculous on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Jack Reacher » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:36 pm

Xanth wrote: Basically, since all is consciousness, there is no “physical body”. There never was, it’s all virtual. So there’s nothing to “separate” from. And since there’s no physical body, there’s nothing “internal” with which you project into.


From my point of view, the physical world came first. The universe has been around billions of years before humans came along and it did just fine without us (otherwise it wouldnt have been able to come into the shape it is today to get us here), I feel consciousness is just a small part of the universe, it won't be around for long and once its gone, thats it, gone for good.

So naturally I disagree with your first point that all is consciousness. I think everything outside our body that isn't organic or alive, say a rock or a tree, isn't conscious. The physical world is there regardless of how we view it. So when we dream, I believe we are indeed taking an internal journey because everything in that dream came from you, its all happening in your brain so to speak. Your mind and your expectations and feelings created the environment, and anything and everything in it is really just a projection, its not a thing in itself. All dream characters are all just projections, they seem real to you but if you were to look from their point of view, they aren't conscious, they have no point of view.

Now to me an Astral Projection, at least the term in this sort of context, would be an external experience because you are interacting with objects that are not a part of yourself. You are in a different plane of a different substance that has its own laws and own sort of behavior, its own choice. You can interact with entities and other physical stuff in this plane. I personally don't beleive such a plane exists, but im open to it, and this is how I define it.

The main difference between us is you seem to think that the self is everything. Im mainly talking about the waking self. To say me and this laptop that I am typing on are the same thing... I just dont see that.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Methiculous » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:56 pm

There is a fine line between your 'body' and the rest of the universe that we would consider 'not our body'.

But think about this: you are constantly shedding dead skin cells, and losing hair follicles and your body is constantly becoming apart of the non-living physical world around us. And we also breath in air, some of that oxygen is retained in out bodies and becomes a part of you, and then you exhale carbon dioxide and it goes back into the universe. We are constantly giving and taking atoms from the universe to use in our bodies. But yet you still feel like the same person with each passing second even though technically your body is forever changing.
Jack Reacher wrote:To say me and this laptop that I am typing on are the same thing... I just dont see that.
It's possible that some of the atoms that were composing your body a long time ago are now in the laptop after they were shedded or exhaled many years ago and floated around and then became a component of the computer. And I have oxygen inside my blood stream right now that may have been inside countless other famous people throughout the ages.

There is a fine line between where our bodies stop and the rest of the universe begins and perhaps there is no line except the ones we conveniently imagine in our minds because it is comfortable and makes sense to us.
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
It could be the sea, or I could see a bee.
Don't you see? It doesn't matter to me. Just let it be!
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Jack Reacher » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:06 pm

Yeah i get that, your talking about how we change with time. I only see us as constant when you freeze time. I suppose you could say every second is a slightly different me, im fine with that. Physical matter that used to make up me that is now on the laptop, I dont see how that makes the laptop "me"
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Bedeekin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:19 pm

I experience this reality the same as I experience the nonphysical reality. The only difference is that there is a consistency of action and reaction in this one. A constrained set of laws that tightly hold everything into a startlingly solid experience... one which is quite astounding looking at it from a nonphysical point of view. This can be reversed concerning the nonphysical from this side of the 'reality fence'... it is not solid, it has no real 'cause effect' and the only constraints are those that consciousness creates.

But as to internal and external and whether the nonphysical is real.. I can only go by my experience and say that it is all internal.. including physical reality.

Let me put it like this... These are questions I have asked myself over the years.

If I am just having an internal 'hallucination' then...

*It is a hallucination where one can consciously feel fully physical (tactile, hearing, smell and sight) while navigating a complete environment.
*It's a shared hallucination that can be related to by many people with consistent phenomenologies and modalities.
Concerning RTZ projections...
*It is a hallucination that can be totally controlled by the hallucinator and is so cunning, that it can replicate the normal conscious world from positional angles never seen before.
*The hallucinatory visual quality created is unlike normal vision in that it gives a 360 degrees version.
*Not only that but the hallucinatory reality it creates has the same physical boundaries that this reality has i.e. there are no monsters, no three headed dragons or chasing demons. Instead, up is up, down is down, it is my bedroom etc.
*The only physical rules this hallucinatory state allows the hallucinating mind to break is the hallucination that one can break the laws gravity and reality itself i.e. float through solid objects and fly.
*It replicates the illusion of being consciously awake while in a form that can be best described as a ghost.
*It is a contagious hallucination I have passed on to my girlfriend that seems to coincide with my own making her see me as a ghost.
*It runs in realtime and can also uncannily replicate future events.
*It is also an hallucination induced in some that report NDEs (Near Death Experience) .. close to death.
*This hallucination still manages to pervade in the lives of many without resulting in psychological illness or neurological damage - I assume this because I have had thousands of these hallucinations... since the age of 11. I assume I am ok.
*It is an hallucination that has been pervading human consciousness throughout history.

So if it is just a completely internal experience... Why?

What is the point of having this ability in the grand scheme of evolution... if you are a materialist.. these points must be addressed before arriving at an answer.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Methiculous » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:38 pm

Jack Reacher wrote:Physical matter that used to make up me that is now on the laptop, I dont see how that makes the laptop "me"


Yea, the laptop may contain traces of things that was once your 'body'. But the thing we consider 'me' is something completely different and although it won't exist without the brain (also part of the body) 'me' is not your body. It is more of an idea and certainly not physically the computer. I still find it hard to put into words. What are we really when you get right down to the essence of it?

It's theoretically possible that I could extract my consciousness and put it into a machine and watch my body wither and die and I would still feel 'alive'. The body was immaterial. so WHAT AM 'I'? Am I just a figment of my own imagination and therefore can perceive myself in different ways depending on what state of mind I am in? I'm starting to ask more questions than answers and many philosophers have had this dispute for years. But it is certainly connected to the phenomenon of what we would consider Astral Projections or OBE's or in my opinion just a vivid lucid dream that was 'internal'.
I close my eyes and see what I can see, whatever it may be.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby ChopstickFox » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:03 pm

It is true that we contain pretty much completely different atoms from when we were born, but I don't think that's enough to prove that we are one with a computer or even that we are one with the universe around us and our consciousness is kind of it's own thing. Is there hard evidence out there that there is more to us than our big brains and meaty bodies? Maybe not concrete enough for everyone, but that's cool too. After all, can anyone really know better than anyone else about this?

I still try to objectively think of my experiences as internal and what I see is gathered, organized, and represented by my own mind. It's when I'm presented with information that I know isn't from my own mind that I start getting confused. Places I've never been, but I can draw accurate maps of, events that I didn't have knowledge of, but could pick out accurate details that matched up. That's been enough evidence to me that there's something a little beyond little meat bag me going on, hehe.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Bedeekin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:04 pm

I was inspired to think of reality as akin to a computer simulation a while ago. It was evident that because both the physical and nonphysical were experienced by me in the same way on both sides. It was only the reality that I was experiencing that had different qualities. Then I read My Big Toe and this 'theory' was fleshed out.

If thought of as us as little pockets of constrained self aware avatars within a constrained simulation and the nonphysical as the CPU and World Wide Web... then it's pretty simple. Obviously there is a whole lot more to it than that.. but this means we are all essentially part of the simulation... whether it be grass.. space dust... or a single atom.. we are all part of the same 'game'. We can - when not focused on this specific constrained reality - become part of the whole and move about it freely.. the hard drive... the files and memory etc.

If for instance an unimaginably humongous super powerful simulation was invented where all the little avatars or game characters were self aware pockets of information that were given a digital body with a digital brain that represented their mind.. that each pixel was an atom that made up their universe.. and that these pixels were more than just a visual aid and actually contained information that described a locational and material value and tried then to tell them to imagine that the simulated game they were in wasn't real and was just a figment of their programming... would they understand?
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby ChopstickFox » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:27 pm

Everything which has a beginning is by that very fact - a simulation ~Wi11iam

*braces for scream*

No, seriously. I think that is an excellent way of presenting things. What you just said, of course.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Jack Reacher » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:17 am

Bedeekin wrote:So if it is just a completely internal experience... Why?

What is the point of having this ability in the grand scheme of evolution... if you are a materialist.. these points must be addressed before arriving at an answer.


Imo its just humans experimenting and exploiting a feature we have, which is dreaming. I think is just accidental, it wasn't put there in purpose or anything like that, its just a consequence of dreaming, a consequence of the mircale that is consciousness.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Bedeekin » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:21 am

ChopstickFox wrote:Everything which has a beginning is by that very fact - a simulation ~Wi11iam

*braces for scream*


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH!!! :D

Jack Reacher wrote:
Bedeekin wrote:So if it is just a completely internal experience... Why?

What is the point of having this ability in the grand scheme of evolution... if you are a materialist.. these points must be addressed before arriving at an answer.


Imo its just humans experimenting and exploiting a feature we have, which is dreaming. I think is just accidental, it wasn't put there in purpose or anything like that, its just a consequence of dreaming, a consequence of the mircale that is consciousness.


It's such an amazing feature it has its own subculture... and has done since time immemorial.. also it's managed to convince some great minds into concluding that consciousness is nonlocal.

It's interesting that it was originally kept to spiritual practices and shamans... and now it's much more prevalent with the advent of the internet. Maybe it's something that is evolving.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Jack Reacher » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:33 am

Well the internet really does make this kind of stuff evolve much quicker, I don't really know why this kind of stuff isn't mainstream general knowledge, most people don't really know that it is actually possible to not only be aware in your dreams but control them as well, with all the benefits that come with it such as physical sensations. Im guessing its because the experiences themselves are so rare and so hard to pull off by accident, because its such a random freakish thing in the first place. I mean to actually intend to pull this stuff off you really just gotta find the right balance of being tired enough for your body to go to sleep and being active enough mentally to concentrate through it. Even then sometimes you just drift off, other times you don't even fall asleep, its all so relative towards other factors that are quite hard to control.

With the internet though things like this can grow so much better because people can share tips and methods on how to get it to work. But I dont really see that as some natural evolution, its people deciding to exploit this little "Glitch" that our dreams have, imo. You know what from now on just assume each one of my posts start with imo or some shit.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby astralzombie » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:04 pm

I'm definitely going with internal. The reasoning I use holds true for me under consideration of everyone's opinion. To say that we have no physical body to internalize our thoughts or to say that our consciousness or awareness leave our bodies to explore does not matter to me. Either way, it is still internal.

Even if you could be aware of every thought I ever had or will have, the most you could do is manipulate or influence them but you will never control them like you could an externally based whatever.. My thoughts still originate from within me, wherever that "within" may be.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby CFTraveler » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:24 pm

Xanth wrote:Every point of view is most welcome here. And welcome with vast quantities of respect! :)

So, CFT, you don't do the classic separation obe anymore? By your tone, it sounds like that wasn't by choice?
Correct. For some reason, I can't seem to stay in realtime, and my exits don't have the ol' fashioned sensations that used to come with the experience. Even sounds are hard to come by. Just -whoosh- and I'm somewhere.
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Re: Are Projections “Internal” or “External” Experiences?

Postby Xanth » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:01 pm

CFTraveler wrote:
Xanth wrote:Every point of view is most welcome here. And welcome with vast quantities of respect! :)

So, CFT, you don't do the classic separation obe anymore? By your tone, it sounds like that wasn't by choice?
Correct. For some reason, I can't seem to stay in realtime, and my exits don't have the ol' fashioned sensations that used to come with the experience. Even sounds are hard to come by. Just -whoosh- and I'm somewhere.

Y'know... there was a short time when I thought you were, perhaps, Frank in hiding. ;)
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